May 30, 2016

Can you teach ‘real’ engineering at a distance?

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This blog is prompted by an e-mail from Rich Zuc, who wanted to know why there were no undergraduate degrees in engineering offered at a distance. With his permission, his letter is reproduced below, with my answers.

Rich wrote:

I am a resident of Hamilton Ontario and I am interested in online and distance learning (DL)  as I am seeking to pursue an undergraduate program in engineering/science.

I left university in my early 20s, in the mid 1990s, due to family commitments and never had the opportunity to complete an undergraduate engineering degree. Back then I started looking for an engineering/science degree offered via distance learning by a Canadian university; I did carry out extensive internet searches but to no avail. I have kept on searching ever since. Now, with 2010 just around the corner the online/DL situation in Canada, with respect to providing science and engineering degrees, has not changed at all!! There are very very few traditional brick and mortar Canadian universities that offer online/DL 4 year honours undergraduate degrees in the Arts and Social Sciences and practically no traditional brick and mortar institution offers an online/DL honours degree in engineering/science!!!

Do you expect that opportunities in engineering and science, via online/DL programs offered by traditional brick and mortar Canadian schools, are likely to remain as they are…that is non-existent!! Or based on your experience do you foresee some change in the not too distant future? Do you feel that this has to do mainly with: resistance by universities’ committees, boards, governing bodies or faculty members?

I replied:

You raise an important issue here. As far as I know (and I’m not an engineer) you are correct – there are no undergraduate engineering degrees that are offered entirely online or at a distance in Canada, and very few at undergraduate level in the USA. Some organisations, such as Stanford University, offer graduate engineering programs online. You can do several certificate programs in ‘hard’ engineering from the British Columbia Institute of Technology by distance. I’m not sure whether you can transfer these courses into a regular undergraduate degree, thus shortening the time on campus, but generally you can in British Columbia. (Whether Ontario institutions will accept them is much more problematic). Have a look at the BCIT Civil Engineering site which has good questions and answers on the distance programs they offer. There are computer science programs available online from a limited number of Canadian institutions, but I know of no whole undergraduate programs in the ‘hard’ engineering areas, civil, mechanical or electrical.

This is not because it would be impossible to design a high quality engineering distance education program, using a combination of online teaching, simulations and limited laboratory time at an accredited local institution. There are successful design models for this in other professions, such as medicine.

There are several reasons for why there are no undergraduate engineering programs offered by distance delivery. The main obstacle is the professional accreditation agencies, who require students to have a very high level of laboratory classroom time in a program before accepting a degree for professional accreditation. There is a belief that engineering is very much a hands-on profession and needs personal supervision within a laboratory context.

A second obstacle is the very high cost of designing laboratory simulations in engineering that might replace physical labs for online students. Some progress is being made in this area, but the whole area lacks sustainable business models – it’s a chicken and egg situation: lack of recognition for online learning limits large scale applications.

Interestingly, there is growing evidence that engineering can be taught successfully online in apprenticeship programs – or at least mainly online. Vancouver Community College runs a very successful program for apprentices in car body work repairs (E-pprentice), reducing a 13 week semester course to three weeks on campus at the end of the course, with the rest being done online. BCCampus is now managing a program funded by BC’s Industrial Training Agency for flexible delivery of trades training across the province that combines online learning with local supervision of hands-on skills development.

However, I cannot see the universities moving in this direction unless there is a real crisis in getting engineering students. There are no incentives for them to offer alternative delivery. The focus of most engineering professors is on research and they would prefer to have fewer rather than more students, as teaching interferes with research. There are in North America still plenty of well qualified applicants for undergraduate campus-based engineering programs.

Having said this, engineering does compare badly to another professional area, medicine. The medics have been much more innovative in using distance education. For instance in BC, a partnership between the main hospitals, UBC, UNBC, and University of Victoria has resulted in a distributed education model for the M.D. program in the province, so people don’t have to move to Vancouver where the only medical school is located. What drove this was the need to retain doctors in the regions, rather than have them all move to Vancouver. Note again though that this is a graduate, distributed learning program, and is not fully online.

Now over to you, readers. Can you answer the following questions:

1. Name one North American university that offers an entire undergraduate civil, mechanical or electrical engineering by distance that is accepted for accreditation by a professional engineering organization.

2. Do you agree that it would be possible to design and deliver a high quality undergraduate engineering degree for entirely distance delivery (allowing for perhaps local hands-on supervision by employers or summer school at a regular university)?

2. If so, why are there no or so few undergraduate programs at a distance in engineering?

It would be really good to hear from some engineering faculty on this topic.

In the meantime, take a look at: Best Online Graduate Engineering Programs 2016 from U.S. News (only institutions in the USA, though).

Comments

  1. I am surprised to not see Cape Breton University (CBU) here. They offer an online BTech Manufacturing degree. The only thing is that the exams will be invigilated by an authorised person at a local college/university.

    http://www.cbu.ca/academics/online/online-programs

    I went to Georgian College, Barrie for Mechanical Engineering Technology and it turns out Georgian and CBU have an articulation, so I will be able to get the degree by completing only 10 courses. I do realize that this is a BTech. and not a BEngg program, but hey its something better than nothing right. With the lack of a feaseable option, in terms of both tuition and accessibility (UND’s tuition is some US$912 PER CREDIT for anywhere outside Manitoba & Sask. in Canada) this sounds like a good option at an aprox. CAD700 PER COURSE.

    One other thing, I did join UofMcMaster, for their BTech. Manuf., but their lack of “customer service” and the fact that diploma holders need 24 courses (many of which are the same ones I did in college) to attain a degree is a turn-off for me.

    Maybe someone here could talk about their experience at CBU.

  2. Greetings

    I to am another engineering enthusiast, and similarly, I don’t have the luxury of being able to attend school full-time nor have the time and finances to travel vast distances to attend school part-time. .

    I am confident that engineering can be taught through online means. Within the engineering field, it is work experience that matters most, and if the student can work in the field while being taught, that alone should substitute for any missing engineering lab components that are required to complete the engineering program. Traditional students that graduate don’t even have the experience that non-traditional students have.

    Online engineering programs can simply require the student to work under the supervision of a P.Eng and can easily co-ordinate their lab component with the students ongoing work experience in a linear order. In fact, I heard of someone completing an online civil engineering degree through the UK system by doing the exact same thing.

    Now, as a Canadian and a architectural appreciate, I would now like to use the RAIC Syllabus as an example. Please look it up if you wish. Completing the RAIC Syllabus is an alternative method of becoming an architect through distance learning rather then attending traditional school. The student is required to work, and login, a fixed number of hours, under the supervision of a registered architect to complete the program, while completing their online courses. Although the program is a lot longer then traditional school, the methodology of completing the program can be transferred to engineering programs.

    I honestly believe that Canadians are being given raw deal in terms of the integration of technology to access education. Yes, there are some programs online, but not enough, if any, of the more professional programs. I believe a lot of it has to do with the business behind and interlinking these institutions, politicians and accreditation councils.

    There needs to be more public pressure on the politicians to address this issue with academic institutions and accreditation councils. If need be, have them threaten to remove their government funding and subsidies if they fail to comply.

    I mean, you can get a fully accredited online law degrees from the UK that will allow the student to sit the bar and practice any where in the commonwealth. Where is this in Canada? Are we not a developed nation, just as advanced? We have the methodology and technology, so why are we being treated like this?

    I am sure that anyone with a deep pocket and a half fast lawyer can sue the respective organizations that are stagnating and preventing the accessibility of these programs in Canada with discriminating the under-privileged, working class, remote living from obtaining a higher education.

    • Thanks for the comment, Dennis. I agree that the professional accreditation bodies, especially in engineering and law in Canada, have been very reactionary about approving online and distance courses in principle. (Medicine/health and accountants on the other hand have been much more receptive). However, professional accreditation bodies are independent bodies, not funded by government, but by dues from members and employers. The pressure to accept online learning therefore must come from within these professions if things are to change. So don’t blame educational institutions or government (although they too could do more to lean on professional bodies about this.)

  3. Timo Holburn says:

    Several US-based universities offer ABET-accredited online degrees in engineering. The ABET website has a list, but it’s not complete. (Why? Some programs have a small on-campus portion, making them not “fully online.” Some fully-online programs are so new that no cohort has graduated yet.)

    You asked for one example, so here you go: Arizona State University (ASU) offers an online “Bachelor of Science in Engineering, Electrical Engineering” program. I’d include a link but I suspect that would cause a red flag, so just search for it.

    Bonus: Check out all the online engineering bachelors degrees offered by the University of North Dakota (UND).

    Many of the programs require the students to come to their campus to do labs, as it’s tricky getting around those, but not all courses have labs. Those labs can be done in the summer, and can be anywhere from an intense five days up to a whole semester, depending on the university.

    It’s also worth noting that Canadians can take those US-based online engineering bachelors degree programs.

    • Thanks, Timo. That’s very helpful and much appreciated

    • Chris Baehr says:

      “It’s also worth noting that Canadians can take those US-based online engineering bachelors degree programs.”

      Except that they won’t be recognized in Canada, so you would be wasting your money. See the quote below:

      “Furthermore, PEO does not recognize online or distance education.”

      Sincerely,
      Esther Kim
      Senior Admissions Representative
      Professional Engineers Ontario
      101-40 Sheppard Ave. W.
      North York, ON M2N 6K9
      Tel: 416-840-1039
      Fax: 416-224-8168
      ekim@peo.on.ca

  4. Robert Schmid says:

    Thanks for this article Tony. I have been looking around for an online electrical engineering program for a year or so now. I am a licensed electrician and wound up working for a company where I am in an office doing tech support and helping out with designing systems and not in a financial setup where I could take the time off to do a full time course.
    I do believe that there could and would be the demand for online courses and I do not see why the “hands on” portion could not be done via the wonderful technology of the internet. I do understand that the cost of the initial programming of the course would be time consuming and expensive. However I don’t see why a program could not be developed to be the base program for the manipulation to any different engineering course.

  5. Just a further piece of information on this issue. The New York University Tandon School of Engineering grants online graduate and immersion certificates and master’s degrees in more than a dozen fields. The school’s online unit was recognized this year (2015) by the Online Learning Consortium for outstanding success in furthering online learning programs in engineering. OK, it’s not an undergraduate program, but…

  6. February 3, 2016: The University of North Dakota will now be offering a Master of Science in Electrical Engineering fully online (see http://dakotastudent.com/7477/news/und-launches-online-masters-in-electrical-engineering/)

    “UND’s Department of Electrical Engineering receives numerous requests from recent graduates who are already in their careers, but still wanted to further their education,” said Sima Noghanian, associate professor and chair, said in a statement. “This online program allows them to pursue a master’s degree while continuing their careers.”

  7. Byron Studer says:

    Hello all, great conversation… in search of a Civil Tech/Civil Diploma course online as well. Too bad about BCIT ending theirs in 2010! I had no idea. Just posting in hopes of being updated for any future posts.

    Thanks to all

  8. Chris Baehr says:

    I am the perfect person to offer an opinion on this.

    The reason there are no online/distance programs in engineering is because the regulatory agencies that oversee the P.Eng credential in Canada will not accept them. Period. Here is a quote from a letter I received from Esther Kim of the PEO (Professional Engineers Ontario) when I tried to pursue my P.Eng:

    “Furthermore, PEO does not recognize online or distance education.”

    Esther Kim
    Senior Admissions Representative
    Professional Engineers Ontario
    101-40 Sheppard Ave. W.
    North York, ON M2N 6K9
    Tel: 416-840-1039
    Fax: 416-224-8168
    ekim@peo.on.ca

    That’s pretty definitive isn’t it? The problem begins and ends with the regulatory bodies that oversee the profession. They are stubborn, out of touch with the times, and they will never change.

    If anything, engineering is perfectly suited for online/distance study because it’s math and design work. The work is done almost entirely on computers. It could easily be done from home.

    I have tried everything to make change happen, even going to politicians for support. Nothing has worked. These organizations are above the law, and they answer to no one.

    Please feel free to contact me for more information.

    • Jeff Potter says:

      Further to Chris’ comments above, I live in Alberta and am wanting to do distance learning, and I have received this from APEGA regarding distance learning:

      “The current Board of Examiners practice is that they do not recognize distance learning programs. ”

      “Canadian engineering programs accredited by the Canadian Engineering Accreditation Board (CEAB) are recognized by the Board of Examiners. The link below provides a list of CEAB accredited programs:
      http://www.engineerscanada.ca/sites/default/files/2014_accreditation_criteria_and_procedures_v06.pdf

      “ABET accredited degrees are evaluated on a course-by-course basis against APEGA syllabi and course equivalents.
      http://applyatapega.ca/exam-course-syllabi.html

      I think the universities from the US offering these programs should appeal to the governing agencies in Canada if they want to attract more students from here.

      • Jeff,

        It appears that Association of Professional Engineers and Geoscientists of Manitoba (APEGM) is accepting the University of North Dakota’s distance education-based engineering program because it is ABET-accredited. I found this information on Professional Engineers of Ontario website (see link http://www.peo.on.ca/index.php/ci_id/28734/la_id/1.htm
        Which states:
        “Minutes of the January 17, 2014 Regular Meeting
        Under Item 7.4 Distance Education – Introduced by Seimer Tsang, Bob Dony stated that the Association of Professional Engineers and Geoscientists of Manitoba (APEGM) is accepting the University of North Dakota’s distance education-based engineering program because it is ABET-accredited. This will probably create a discussion at the Canadian Engineering Accreditation Board (CEAB) of whether or not the CEAB will start accepting more distance education components, or at what point it will accept distance education as an entire degree. The Chair remarked that PEO should advise the CEAB that this is not acceptable to PEO. The Chair and Bob Dony agreed to discuss this matter further off-line.”

        I would recommend a potential Canadian applicant to University of North Dakota’s undergraduate degree to confirm that with Association of Professional Engineers and Geoscientists of Manitoba (APEGM). If it s true then at least one of the provinces is onboard, and I hope the remaining will follow.

    • Chris see below my reply to Jeff’s post.

    • Spiros Hippolyte says:

      Hello everyone,

      Canadian engineer boards are having to consider the implications of distance education, yet until a decision became official (across CEAB & each association) boards will discourage any external applicant from using distance education(I learnt this from APEGA) to fulfill academic requirements (for example to exempt from any technical exam). Yet accredited engineering programs across Canada allow distance courses in liberal studies and now at University of Toronto & Mcmaster University, actual engineering courses (intro. materials sci. -chemistry, electronic circuits & devices). While the online course from U of T is part of their 1st year -engineering curriculum, the Mcmaster course is from year 2, electrical engineering. Labs are taken using home kits.

  9. Thanks for sharing your conversation, I’ve learned a lot from reading. I am thinking about becoming a municipal engineer. I agree with you that it would be hard to design a high quality engineering program from a distance. When I go to school, I want to be close to my teachers.

  10. Mike A. says:

    This is awesome. I’m glad I’m not the only person looking to do this online and noticing the lack of online courses available to even work towards the degree. I was planning to make this a 10 year plan which is apparently not possible. I’ve emailed a few Universities in my area and was informed that I would have to attend full time. Like the rest of you I have other obligations, kids to feed clothe and house, that make it impractical if not impossible unless I win the lottery in the near future. Does anyone know of any backdoor routes? I have three trades and was hoping all of my College credits and years of experience would be worth something. I read a study out of BC that was talking about trades to academic transfer but have not been able to find any programs that actually do it beyond looking at your college transcript. I had also been told at one point that some Universities will accept a red seal in place of 2 years worth of credits. Has anyone else heard of anything like this?

  11. Hi everyone. I am wondering if anyone found a solution to this? Did anyone find an online program for engineering in Canada. I took Architectural Technology after high school and am now working in a structural engineering firm. I love the atmosphere and would like to pursue engineering. I do not want to quit my job to go back to school full time. Any suggestions to this?

    • Hi, Jess (and Mike)
      There are now a few engineering programs that can be taken fully online in Canada. The most notable is Queen’s University (Ontario) that is now offering a B.Tech in Mining Engineering fully online. McMaster University (also in Ontario) is offering a B.Tech in Software Engineering in partnership with Mohawk College (two years at Mohawk, two years at McMaster). I’m not sure if the Mohawk part is fully online but the McMaster part definitely is. These are both prestigious Canadian universities.
      Any other examples?

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